Former Crayola CMO on why brand recognition doesn’t create an iconic global brand

[00:00:00] Victoria Lozano: There’s a statistic out there that facts that are shared through a story are remembered 22 times more than facts that are just shared as facts. And I think the reason is actually pretty simple, right? Because it drives engagement and it drives retention. It makes me remember because in the contents of a story rather than just a bunch of random facts. People listen to stories. They can relate. They understand them. They, they see themselves potentially, right? Or they apply it to their own lives. And I think that makes storytelling not only the ultimate sort of expression and one of the most powerful forms of marketing, but I actually think storytelling can extend well beyond that and sort of become the narrative for your entire business and your growth platform. If you ultimately, similar to, as I mentioned, the work that I led in Crayola, if you ultimately become a brand that stands for and champions creativity, right? It allows you to think about, “Hey, what’s the growth thesis for the business that is based on the brand as a creativity brand, and what are all the ways that we can sort of elevate what we already do in the existing business? How can we get into new spaces, adjacent spaces? How can we create new revenue streams?” All of it then becomes possible, and I think a lot of times the storytelling is kind of foundational to your ability to do that.

[00:01:16] Jason Hemingway: Welcome to In Other Words, the podcast from Phrase where we speak with business leaders shaping how organizations grow, adapt, and connect around the world. I’m Jason Hemingway, Chief Marketing Officer at Phrase, and today’s guest is Victoria Lozano, Former Chief Marketing Officer and EVP at Crayola, where she spent 17 years and helped transform the company from a product brand into a growth ecosystem spanning, you know, physical venues, children’s entertainment and global licensing. Victoria’s route to the CMO role was pretty unusual. She’s built the business case and financial model for Crayola’s entry into what’s called location-based entertainment, and just think branded physical events where families come to play and create, and then ran that business for seven years with full P&L responsibility. And before Crayola, she managed a seven-brand billion-dollar portfolio at the very recognizable brand, Cadbury. The accolades have poured in, and Forbes have recognized her as one of its 50 entrepreneurial CMOs in 2025, and Fast Company named her CMO of the Year in that same year. And I’m really glad she’s joined us, and today we’ll be exploring how an iconic brand grows beyond maybe its original product while staying relevant to audiences, cultures, and markets, especially when the person you need to win over might only be five years old. Victoria, with that, it’s great to have you on the show.

[00:02:42] Victoria Lozano: Thanks, Jason. Great to be here.

[00:02:44] Jason Hemingway: So, Victoria, you’ve been described as a builder – you know, brands, businesses, teams, new ventures. Where do you think that kind of moniker comes from?

[00:02:52] Victoria Lozano: Well, I think, Jason, it’s actually just how my mind works. It’s hard for me to look at a business just as it exists today. I naturally tend to think about, hey, what’s this brand today? What could this brand actually be in terms of positioning, in terms of narrative? And then, what new opportunities does that open up? And then, how do we commercialize them, right? How do we sort of build them into not just the ability to strengthen the core business? It could be about reaching new audiences, new categories. It could be about new revenue streams. But importantly, how do you profitably commercialize that idea? And, you know, I think there is that special, a little bit of a special sauce around the financial discipline, the operational rigor, the ability to bring people with you that are all required to really make that happen. So, that’s really the part of the brand building and the business and the commercial growth that I really enjoy.

[00:03:41] Jason Hemingway: Yeah. And it’s evident in the work you’ve done, actually, as we’ll get to and we’ll talk about in a minute. But let’s kind of look at Crayola then a little bit. And it began as kind of an iconic product brand, I’d say. But during your time there, you built it, as we just said, you built it and expanded it into education, entertainment, retail licensing, location-based experiences, those physical venues I mentioned at the beginning where families come in and spend the day doing creative activities. But I guess all of those things, what was the kind of strategic thinking behind building a more, I don’t know, connected ecosystem around the brand? And how did you decide where Crayola could extend credibly, particularly into other markets, I guess?

[00:04:26] Victoria Lozano: I think to me is, you know, great brands always do more than just sell something. They actually mean something. And great brands have really good clarity around what that is. What’s the true insider act, how they fit into people’s lives, what value they really deliver? And I think it’s not so much about just the category you compete in, but really, like, what role do you play? And especially if you have more than one brand, you know, you have a portfolio of brands like I did in Cadbury, then it also becomes a question of the individual brand, but also how do these brands create value together? And how does that, actually, more so than they could independently? I think the notion of brand ecosystems is really a powerful one. If you can get really clear on what the brand represents, I believe it opens up a lot of opportunities, and the ways of creating an ecosystem that could be not only a struggle of brand building, but also revenue generation. And, you know, Crayola is a perfect example. The brand historically has been an incredible brand around arts and crafts for young kids. A lot of the work that I led was really focused on how do you evolve it from an arts and crafts to a brand that is really around creativity and that champions creativity, that advocates creativity, and it sort of manifests across all the different ways that creativity can show up or people can engage with it. So, you mentioned location-based entertainment, but it was even bigger than that. A creativity brand can show up in the way that you create physical experiences, right, so that you can immerse people in the brand and the creativity and have them want to do more of those kinds of experiences afterwards. But it can also show up in, you know, in interactive and gaming spacing. What does those experiences look like that really champion or enable kids to express their creativity? What does that look like in entertainment and the kind of content that you create that really showcases and makes creativity cool? It can show up in a lot of these ways. And I think for me, the model of not just products. Products are core to any business because products anchor you as a brand and as a business. But what could that expand to? What could be the vision for the innovation pipeline? But also, how does your brand sort of extend into experiences like location-based entertainment, like interactive, or content? You know, whether it’s social, whether it’s, you know, education, what happens in the classroom, or whether it’s, you know, entertainment, that kind of a model around a bigger brand platform and a model around products, experiences, content is exactly what was my focus in my role at Crayola, how to elevate the brand and then build a measurable commercial growth and a commercial business based on those, you know, strategies.

[00:07:10] Jason Hemingway: Yeah, it’s really interesting. I think we’ll come back to some of the more commercial side of it. And I think what’s clear is you really understood where you could credibly, I think that word credibly extend is quite interesting. And I think some of that, when I’ve heard you speak before and stuff, you talk about storytelling at a much deeper level, maybe. And that’s expanding the kind of way you think about, you know, how your brand ecosystem works. What was your vision and thinking around that? And how did you kind of think that kind of children’s entertainment, that creativity element needed to connect across, maybe even from our perspective, different markets and different languages? How does that work?

[00:07:45] Victoria Lozano: I would say, I think that foundational to the ecosystem kind of approach that I described is first making sure that you have a really innate understanding and really deep understanding of the consumer insight. And I sort of want to distinguish between data and insight, right? A lot of times, it is data-rich but insight-poor and really going deep on the why, right? What the role is, why do people use it, and how do you articulate it in a way they can understand and they can relate to? And more importantly, they’re compelled to do something different. So, I think that actually could be the hard work in this type of a strategic exercise. But I think if you could get to that really great clarity, I think that is a key enabler to what I just described and becomes the foundation to the storytelling that you need to sort of develop around the brand. There’s a statistic out there that facts that are shared through a story are remembered 22 times more than facts that are just shared as facts. The reason is actually pretty simple, right? Because it drives engagement and it drives retention. It makes me remember because in the content of a story, rather than just, you know, a bunch of random or pointed facts. People listen to stories. They can relate. They understand them. They see themselves potentially, right? Or they apply it to their own lives. And I think that makes storytelling not only the ultimate sort of expression and one of the most powerful forms of marketing, but I actually think storytelling can extend well beyond that and sort of become the narrative for your entire business and your growth platform. If you ultimately, similar to, as I mentioned, the work that I led in Crayola, if you ultimately become a brand that stands for and champions creativity, right, it allows you to think about, hey, what’s the growth thesis for the business that’s based on the brand as a creativity brand? And what are all the different ways that we can sort of elevate what we already do in the existing business? How can we get into new spaces, adjacent spaces? How can we create new revenue streams? All of it then becomes possible. And I think a lot of times the storytelling is kind of foundational to your ability to do that. I think Crayola did that well. I think there’s other brands that do that well, right? Dove does it well. I think Lego does it incredibly well. Patagonia does it well. It’s a very, very powerful way to not only express as, you know, an expression of your brand or your portfolio brands, but also as a way of using that as a decision system to drive commercial growth.

[00:10:19] Jason Hemingway: Yeah, it’s interesting. Storytelling is a driver for where you might think about expansion and revenue growth. That’s an interesting angle to storytelling. And I love that 22 times more memorable. If a fact is dressed within a story, that’s fantastic. And it’s very human, isn’t it? I guess it’s that kind of thing. We’re storytelling creatures, I guess. Just on that last point I asked. When you need to connect across different markets and languages, how do you think about storytelling? There must be a central theme, obviously, to storytelling. But is there nuance to that by market, by region, by language?

[00:10:52] Victoria Lozano: Absolutely. I think so much of storytelling has to have cultural context, right? The right cultural context. So, I think this comes down to a global brand governance. What is it that is really sort of sacred about your brand, about what you need, you know, part of the narrative, part of the positioning that has to be true no matter what? But then the expression of that can be varied, right? So, whether it’s cultural context, whether it’s the words, whether it’s a particular application or, you know, type of business that you might be in in different parts of the world, that might vary a little bit. I think that being able to adjust it to make sure that it’s appropriate and relevant for any particular part of the world or country, I think, is absolutely required to maximize success. But it should always be based on that foundational narrative that is sort of locked. This is sacred. We can’t change it. And that is innate to who we are as a brand or how we want this brand to show up, right? So, it’s not about the positioning and narrative, but it’s really about the expression of it that can be localized to maximize the appeal.

[00:11:54] Jason Hemingway: You’ve got to have some flex, haven’t you, within the market, but also you need that governance at maybe a higher level. So, with the story, the narrative, whatever you want to call it, that central golden thread is always sort of there and not untrue market to market, I guess. Just keep thinking about brand because obviously as marketers, we’re very interested in it, but people are genuinely interested in different ways of thinking about brand. And you gave a keynote recently where you talked about brand awareness, which I think everybody can understand, you know, versus brand authority. I guess many of those brands that you’ve worked on are iconic and had already had a high awareness. But what distinguishes awareness from authority, and how does that maybe change in markets where it may be well known but has a different relationship with the audience, if you see what I mean?

[00:12:39] Victoria Lozano: Sure. Well, I think awareness is, I mean, everybody knows what awareness is, right? It’s all about recognition. People know that you exist and you can buy it. That’s the most important distinction. I think authority is something that you have to build over time, and it something that needs to be nurtured a lot more carefully. It’s not just people knowing about you, but people understanding what you stand for, hopefully trusting, you know, what you stand for in your judgment as a brand and also being able to be in a position to advocate for you. And I think the reason authority is built is that I think, in my view, it requires a couple of key elements. To me, I think of it as a sort of clarity, consistency and credibility. Being really clear in a way that also the consumer can understand. Not just, you know, as a way what we want to say, but expressed in a way that really connects, and resonates, and makes it relevant. I think, you know, consistency is all the ways that you show up. You know, we just talked about the ecosystem. So, if you have a brand that has a more diversified portfolio or businesses, how does it show up? How is it connected? If a consumer experiences it in products versus experiences or in content, does it feel like a holistic brand, and does that come across? So, that consistency is incredibly important because it takes a long time to build, but could be ruined pretty quickly. And I think the third pillar for me is around credibility in both how you act and what you do, consistent with what your brand is about, but also, frankly, being very purposeful and smart around engaging third-party voices that can speak on your behalf. And I think to me, that could be really, really powerful to build that credibility because it’s not just you as a brand. It’s other people in people’s lives that consumer hears. People talk about this brand standing for that or being good for this. And I think that builds an incredible amount of credibility. So, I think if you, as a brand, could be really clear and aspirational around what do you really represent and have a really clear narrative and then be clear about it, be consistent about it and be purposeful in creating that credibility around your messaging and around the way that you commercialize and go to market. I think to me, that’s what builds authority. And I think that’s a really powerful model that creates not only ultimately stronger brands and equity, but ultimately enables you to commercialize that equity in the way that drives measurable business impact.

[00:15:08] Jason Hemingway: I think those three C’s are very good, very good ways of remembering things: clarity, consistency, and credibility and a fantastic sort of insight into how you think. But let’s look at a different couple of C’s. A Campaign For Creativity, which you did, which I like my own link there, which won more than 25 awards, including the much coveted Cannes Lion. And I think its first year used childhood artwork that Crayola had, I think, archived for decades to reconnect American adults with their creative selves, I guess. And the second, Creative Acts of Colour, became an open call inspired by a nine-year-old’s drawing. Tell us a little bit more about those. And again, this idea of when they expand globally, what do they have to consider when you think about consistency and changing from market to market? Probably two questions in one. Think about the first bit, which is: tell us a little bit more about those things and how they came about.

[00:16:01] Victoria Lozano: Well, that campaign is an incredible campaign and something that, as you mentioned, not only received tremendous industry recognition, but I’m personally very proud of it. And I think what really kind of matters is that it wasn’t just the marketing activation. I think it was really an expression of a bigger brand platform and a commercial strategy to say that, as a creativity brand, and how do you use that as a way of driving thought leadership, thought authority, and creating new opportunities across the broader commercial enterprise? What I really believed is that, for Crayola to be credible, we needed to really shift this broader understanding and appreciation of what creativity is. Crayola needed to have a point of view around it. It needed to have a voice in it, and they needed to break through in a way that was memorable and got people to engage and talk about it. Because I think, to me, you know, as a consumer, if you hear something once, okay, that’s nice. If you hear about it multiple times, it feels real, right? I keep hearing about this. This must be real. And I need to pay attention to me. And if you really get the consumer insight on why it matters, the combination of those two things is what drives behavior change. And at the end of the day, that’s what we’re looking for, right? Anything that you do, whether it’s product innovation, whether it’s marketing campaigns, whether it’s new revenue and new growth platforms, you’re looking for consumers to change your behavior, their behavior. And you’re looking for them to purchase your brand, to engage with your business more often. So, whether it’s more people, whether it’s higher purchase frequency, those are the key ways to drive the business. And what I was really proud of about this campaign is that not only did the message resonate, it was incredibly emotional and compelling. I had, I mean, honestly, every time we showed some of the assets in the videos, I had people cry in the audience. So, you know, we really struck a very personal, emotional core, but ultimately the bigger get of it is advancing the mission of making creativity be essential. It’s not a nice-to-do 15-minute activity; it’s creativity as an essential skill, as an essential way to sort of ground and rebalance yourself. And I think those are the really important elements and the important things that that campaign was able to deliver.

[00:18:22] Jason Hemingway: Some of the things I think you’re talking about is all about brand salience, isn’t it? And it’s building that salience so that when somebody is thinking of purchase, they are considering you. And you’ve chosen lots of different ways to think about that: expanding the audience through creativity, expanding what creativity means so that you have that mental availability when somebody comes into a purchase decision, I guess, and they think of you because they like the brand; you’ve got authority. Going back to sort of the second half of my question a little bit. So, when we think, and you mentioned a little bit of this about having a centralized theme, when a campaign like this or any campaign you’ve worked on expands globally, how much authority should stay with that global brand team or whomever’s running the campaign? And how much sits with those people in the region or those closest to the local audience? How do you balance that up, or think about that?

[00:19:08] Victoria Lozano: I think any good campaign, you know, should be really based on a really deep understanding of consumers’ beliefs, attitudes, behavior, so that your message and the way that it goes to market ultimately relates to those. And those are not going to always be identical in each market, right? So, I think you have to have a central point of view. You have to have some key brand principles and a key narrative that remains consistent. Back to, like, what is part of that global brand governance and guidelines. But at the same time, for local teams or regional teams to be able to reflect the cultural context, to really reflect those beliefs added to the community that may be present at any given market, and then determine really not only the right go-to-market and the way that that central point of view and the brand principles get expressed. And certainly the commercial execution should be incredibly tailored to that market. So, I think that’s sort of, like, a little bit the science, more importantly the art, being able to really apply a globally relevant campaign, which any good marketer should make sure it is. And then allow for the expressions in different parts of the world that really maximize the opportunity and help drive that behavior change that you want. You want either more people to engage with your brand, or you want to drive a greater frequency because, at the end of the day, it’s either one of those two. It’s a bit of, you know, it’s marketing, but it’s really a bit of a mathematical problem, right? You’ve got to move one of those to be able to have organic growth.

[00:20:39] Jason Hemingway: Yeah. I mean, that’s the efficacy part, isn’t it? And what you’re really looking for is, does that campaign work everywhere it goes out, I guess? And just quickly to finish off on that point, how do the teams interact? Do they have regular sessions where they talk about it? How did you sort of operationalize that to make sure that the teams are talking? Yeah,

[00:20:58] Victoria Lozano: I think it is regular contact. It is also, honestly, having stakeholders and ownership. This should not be, “We developed it in this market and then here you go.” Right? There needs to be ownership and participation, not only across the world within marketing, but actually cross-functionally. Because to me, a really powerful articulation of what the brand stands for or the way your portfolio of brands, like what I had to do in my Cadbury role, how your portfolio of brand plays and what’s the overall participation strategy for those portfolio brands, having that cross-functional alignment, because at the end of the day, that is going to help drive not only clarity, but also alignment on key metrics, as well as, you know, frankly, the implications of what happens, the work that happens across other functions across the company to make sure that everybody is pushing towards consistent objectives and priorities and doing it in a way that is sort of consistent with those objectives. And this is where I sort of mean when I say, hey, it’s not just a marketing thing, really becomes a decision framework that can be cross-functional, but it doesn’t work if this is a handover point, right? I think when it’s done well, it’s done with key cross-functional stakeholders being actively engaged and having that participation and co-ownership so that, at the end of the day, the embedment and the change management that needs to happen works a lot more smoothly.

[00:22:28] Jason Hemingway: And I think, you know, that’s one of the skills as a modern marketing leader, I think, is that you have to be able to, you know, bring those groups together or at least set that, stall out and say this is what needs to happen for this to be successful.Great insight. So, we’re roughly at the mid-show, what we call the mid-show moment, and we ask every guest on In Other Words the same question. So, Vicky, you’re no different, and we’re going to ask you the same question. So, what’s your most memorable language fail that you’ve ever come across?

[00:22:55] Victoria Lozano: If it’s okay, I’m going to cheat a little bit, and I’ll actually give you two. I’m not going to pick on a specific brand or example. I would say there are two categories, and I’ve seen them repeatedly, sadly, but I do think what I see sometimes is that companies use words that make perfect sense inside the organization, but mean absolutely nothing to the people you’re actually trying to reach. It manifests itself in two ways. One is where the language sounds like strategy. I can envision the creative brief. I can almost like play out what the internal conversation was, but at the end of the day, it’s not a consumer-friendly or consumer-centered message. And at the end of the day, what you need is a human language that people can actually understand, relate to, or causes them to change their behavior or impact their behavior or choices. The other area is around language, or campaigns that lack a clear call-to-action. And I don’t mean a tagline. I don’t mean, like, literally within any single ad, but the campaigns that are really just so high-level that you look at it and it doesn’t compel you to think, feel or do anything differently, right? And I think to me, that’s the difference back to the conversation we had about awareness and authority. It may hit the button on awareness, but is it doing enough for people to notice, to like the message, and ultimately change their behavior? So, I think to me, those are the kinds of things that are really important in go-to-market, but doesn’t always show up. And I honestly think no brand, no company ever has enough money to do everything they want to do, right? And you’re often forced to make a difficult portfolio. So, when I see those kinds of campaigns, it bugs me a little bit because you’d think, hey, what better ways you could have spent that money and done something, right, versus just something that’s very generic.

[00:24:56] Jason Hemingway: Yeah, interesting. Look, I think technology companies, especially for the first one, you know, explaining things in ways we understand rather than how the buyer or the consumer, in your case, would understand. And I think it always comes back to a thing I always remember. I forget who told me many years ago. One of the early marketing people, a professor of marketing I had was, you know, “You are not the customer. You have to remember that you and your business, you’re in your role. You’re not necessarily the person who’s going to be buying the stuff that you’re selling.” So, you need to, that’s where it comes back to that insight, doesn’t it? It comes back to that: what’s that insight, what’s that telling us, and always think about how that’s going to resonate. But yeah, jargon is an interesting one.

[00:25:35] Victoria Lozano: Yeah. And I honestly think, just as a marketer, I do think it’s a little bit of it. It sounds stupid simple, but it’s a little bit of a skill. I’ll sit back for a second and get past what you want to say. And if you were just an average person, you know, anywhere in the country, and you saw this as a standalone thing, would you know what it means? What would you feel? What would you think? What would you do as a result of it? And I think using a little bit of that just, can you help yourself be an objective sort of recipient of this message? And does it make sense to you under that criteria?

[00:26:07] Jason Hemingway: Yeah. No, totally. Very good advice. Let’s go back into things a bit more and talk. Let’s go back before Crayola, and you talk about Cadbury, and obviously you did a lot there. You were running seven brands. I mentioned the $1 billion portfolio. All those brands were speaking to different audiences in different voices in different ways. What did that teach you about distinction without fragmentation? You know, do you see what I mean? How did you keep that connected? You talk a lot about connectivity and clarity. How did you keep that together when you’ve got all that, sort of, different brands working and learning in unison?

[00:26:38] Victoria Lozano: I’ll give you a very specific example. And I use two specific brands within the portfolio that I managed, Dentyne and Trident. Very, you know, very fast-moving consumer goods, very recognizable brands and businesses. On the surface, both chewing gum brands, right? So, sort of competing for the same consumer, for the same shelf space. Some difference functionally. One is sort of known as a world-care brand. The other one is more of a breath-freshening gum, but they compete in the gum category. That’s a perfect example of what I talked about earlier is what category do you compete in versus what business do you really play in? And the businesses was, you know, yes, they compete in the gum category, but Trident was very much based on oral care maintenance. This is what you could do in between the times when you could brush your teeth or visit the dentist or do the things that are, you know, more significant in terms of taking care of your teeth. That was all about, you know, oral care maintenance. And that was sort of the business that it was really in. Dentyne, yes, it delivered breath freshening. But the higher worth benefit was about, you know, why does breath freshening matter? Well, because when you have fresh breath, it helps you facilitate and kind of give you the confidence enough in close, personal connections. So, it was really in the connections business, not in a, you know, breath freshening or gum business. And then when you think about the portfolio that way, right, they’re not really as competitive with each other. Yes, there might be some overlap and, you know, demographics and whatnot, but the usage occasion is incredibly different. Not only how do you really maximize based on those platforms, how do those two brands show up in products, experiences, content, how you market, what your innovation pipeline looks like, the kind of partnerships that you might pursue, you know, very, very different, right? And it allows you to sort of develop a very unique growth thesis for each of those businesses and then make the portfolio investment decisions, which is one of the key, sort of, you know, difficult things that any company or leader has to do. So, based on those bigger platforms, if you understand what the growth potential is, what are all the different areas you can go into, then you have the better information to be able to say, where do I want to make those investments? How do I want to prioritize the portfolio? Because there’s a way for each brand to look and sound different. And also for you to determine, based on that, what’s the potential? How much growth is there, and what has to be true for you to capture that growth?

[00:29:02] Jason Hemingway: Those two things, on a surface level, as a consumer or even as a marketer from a different industry like me, just don’t see that at the beginning. And then when you explain it as two different parts of, you know, two different category entry points almost, and you’ve got two different products for two different category entry points, you know, and two different ways of thinking. In the tech term, in tech terms, we think of it as use cases. They’re different use cases for different kinds of audiences, but it’s so very interesting. And I think the way you think about it is fascinating. But let’s talk about Crayola in that context then. I wonder whether that audience challenge became even more complex because you’ve got to inspire children as well as parents, educators, retailers, all those commercial partners. And maybe with that one recognizable brand, you have to communicate with all of those different parties. Is it a bit like managing portfolios in that sense, or is it managing different audiences or messages, I guess?

[00:29:50] Victoria Lozano: I think both parts of those is true. I think there is, around managing the different audiences and how do you tailor the message, but there was also, as you know, Crayola was a single brand, but it was a portfolio of businesses, right? How does that manifest itself across the portfolio of businesses? So, on the communication side is, you know, back to there needs to be a core part of your positioning and your narrative that is incredibly consistent. What is this brand for? Why does it exist? What’s the purpose? What’s the narrative around, again, not arts and crafts, but creativity? And what is it? Why does it matter? But then you do have a kind of sort of underneath that you have, well, for a kid, that manifests itself this way. For a teacher, here’s why teachers care about this. And really tying into something that really harkers back to why they actually chose this profession, right? Because you really need to understand what’s the human motivation behind it. For parents, it’s around true parental aspiration for their kids. And how do you tailor the message, you know, under that umbrella to address that? So, I think there’s definitely a customization, but they become entry points to one consistent, bigger idea. And then, there’s a second part of your messages. How does that actually show up? Right? And how does it show up if you are in a gated attraction? And what’s that touchpoint? Or if you’re, you know, playing an app or you see a partnership that the brand might be doing, how does it show up across those businesses in a way that allows a brand to both borrow and build? And what I mean by that is you borrow because it is based on what the brand really represents and stands for. But you build and executing consistently and elevating within each space that, sort of, builds that, oh, that’s exciting. That’s cool. That’s credible. And ultimately makes the brand stronger. I think in marketing, that model of borrow and build, you have to have both. Like, what happens to this brand 25 years from now? Right? I think the borrow-and-build model is really important. You have to have both.

[00:31:50] Jason Hemingway: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Also, I love the fact that you’re thinking far into the future, which I think is a real tricky thing for lots of marketers these days when they’re under budget, you know, pressures and maybe investors are looking for quarterly gains. You’ve got to still keep your eye and head on that future, where the future is going, haven’t you? That kind of brand building.

[00:32:08] Victoria Lozano: I think what was interesting, you know, about my career is that I’ve worked on businesses that have incredibly long history and tenure. So, what you do have is the ability to look back and say, “Hey, some of these decisions were made 20, 30 years ago. Like the business, the brand is still very much benefiting from that.” And I think to me, that was always kind of inspirational because I’m like, hey, the things that we’re going to explore today, the way that we evolve the brand, the way that we grow the business, the way that we diversify the business – what can that look like 20, 30 years from now? And are those guys going to be thinking about us going, “Those guys knew what they were doing.” So, I think that, to me, is always, just on a personal level, was always very inspirational. And I think, you know, sometimes the reality is you have the ability to look in a really long-term horizon. Sometimes the business reality is such as you need to sort of focus on the next 6 to 12 months. I think that’s situational, and you have to sort of balance and modify, but this notion of building towards a business that you can leave much stronger than you found. I always find that as a strong personal motivator.

[00:33:11] Jason Hemingway: Yeah, I think I know why, not just personal. I think that would be for anyone working in a company, wouldn’t it? It would be, you know, what you want is some form of legacy: that you were part of a story that continues when you’ve gone. I think that’s noble and actually quite motivating for most people. Let’s talk a little bit about one of those things, because I thought it’s interesting that Crayola Experience venues. You’ve talked about the physical experience, and Iwas reading that something like 1.5 million guests a year. When you take a physical experience somewhere, particularly to a new market, maybe where culture and language, how does culture and language shape it? Is it the same as when we think about digital and all of the other stuff – the consistency, the brand authority – or is there a slight nuance to it? What’s your thinking there?

[00:33:51] Victoria Lozano: Well, I think the key principle we talked about earlier still applies. So, what is truly kind of, you know, essential and sacred about the brand in this case, you know, the visual look and feel or some of the signature experience that you say, “Hey, that has to carry through because they’re really signature to how we identify those experiences.” I think those kinds of things make sense, but then also allowing to localize for cultural context, for, you know, cultural level of technology, as an example, right, for the consumer demographic and understanding, for example, income levels and what they can afford to pay and then what the resulting economics, business economics, and therefore the kind of experiences that you can create and really kind of having that operational lens to it. I think all of that needs to be sort of part of the formula. But I think what’s really interesting for me specifically in that example and the global expansion, it offers opportunity for all boats to rise, right? So, you might have some signature experiences that travel, but you also, based on those cultural contexts, based on, you know, what may be happening or how that experience is going into place in the different markets, what unique experiences might we develop, or might they develop if it’s a licensing partner in that market that ultimately could actually come back and, you know, be implemented elsewhere in the world. Think about this. If you can have, you know, the U.S. as a lead market or any lead market, right, really kind of establish that starting point, but are the markets being able to apply, but also feedback, and you borrow, and you build, right? Exciting experiences. Not only does it ultimately, I think, produce a better experience, but it actually helps reduce the development and the operational costs and reduce it and lower for everyone, and then drives better profitability across that business. So, I think that actually offers a really interesting opportunity to elevate, to expand, to elevate, but also to feed back in a way that drives some measurable efficiencies and cost reductions.

[00:35:53] Jason Hemingway: That leads me really nicely to the sort of next segment that I wanted to talk to you a bit more about, because you talk a lot about financial results and financial outcomes, actually the growth of the business, all of those kinds of things. And indeed, you’ve run full P&L as well as leading marketing. So, how did owning, or does owning, that financial outcome change the kind of way you assessed where brand investment drives growth? How do you think about that? We talked just now about the test and apply it back. How do you originate that from kind of your global standpoint?

[00:36:26] Victoria Lozano: Sure. Well, I think owning the P&L kind of makes those trade-offs very real, right? So, it’s not, so you don’t just care about the brand or how to translate, you know, strategy into consumer sort of messaging. I think you also have to understand how that investment will help create revenue, profit, what capabilities you either have or need, and also really how to create that long-term value the way I talked about it. You know, does that have value over a longer-term horizon that we’re building to something that is just a sort of a short-term hit, or does this have a bigger potential that we can build to? And then, I think it also teaches you or forces you to really think about not just good ideas, but specifically how to operationalize those ideas, right? How to translate the strategy into clear drivers, accountabilities, measures, operating rhythms that sort of connect the idea to the commercial outcomes and building profitable commercial systems around those ideas. So, I think that, to me, it is a broader leadership challenge, or forces you to think as a broader commercial leader, where you might be, you know, come from a marketing sort of as your area of expertise, but at the end of the day, you’re not just a marketer, you’re really a commercial leader that uses brand and marketing as a way to drive growth as sort of that platform.

[00:37:46] Jason Hemingway: Yeah, I love that idea. And I think there’s some interesting things that I’d love to get your perspective on, you know, because a marketer will think about products, they’ll think about campaigns, they might think about distribution, but there are some less visible kinds of things and conditions and things you need to think about that have to be in place. What are those, from your perspective, for a global kind of strategy to succeed? Those things that maybe you’d say you need to think about this, and you probably haven’t, because you haven’t done this other than think about it from a marketing perspective.

[00:38:12] Victoria Lozano: I honestly think one of the most important things any business could do is a really robust, high-quality planning. And I know it may sound weird, because you’re like, well, of course, every business does planning. What does that mean? Of course, we do that. But what I mean by that is, I have seen a lot of plans that look like a manifest themselves as a 50-page deck with a lot of data. And what I actually mean is not that. What I mean is a distilled, fact-based, insight-driven articulation of what is really happening in your business. What is your situation assessment? What true issues do you have to address? What opportunities are you pursuing? So, back to our conversation around storytelling. Don’t give me facts, right? Don’t give me a lot of data. You need to go understand the data. You need to do the work behind it. What I want is, I want you to tell me the story about your business. What is the true situation? What are the opportunities? Right? And what that does is, and I used to always, like, hey, if you do it well, your planning could be done on 2 to 3 pages because it’s not the entire planning exercise, but it’s the articulation that directly connects. So, if this is what’s happening in the business and this is our growth thesis, therefore, here’s what we need to go do to actually be able to capture and get that growth. And I think what that enables you to do is then work backwards, right, to say, hey, what has to be true for us to be able to get there? What measures, what are the KPIs that we want to put along to know that not only we’ve got it, but are we on track, and do we need to learn, or do we need to modify, so that we’re continuing to sort of, you know, go towards that desired goal? I think the conversation on what has to be true across all capabilities, whether it’s people, whether it’s, you know, processes, whether it’s technology, whether it’s, you know, business models or investment, it enables you to have those really robust conversations, and back to the point I made earlier, not just within marketing, this should not be just a marketing conversation. This is about growth. How do we drive growth for the business? It should be cross-functional in nature. Those discussions around the capabilities you need, the investments you need, are really made on the organizational level, and you bring people along, and you have that kind of broader organizational alignment and focus around how you’re going to drive and deliver growth.

[00:40:37] Jason Hemingway: Yeah, I love it. I think what has to be true is a very, very good way of framing the whole thing. And it’s interesting that you, by kind of proxy, talk about what is in classical marketing terms, diagnosis first, strategy next, and tactics last. I think if you think of it from a marketer’s point of view, but actually business growth that you were talking about, and it’s involving all those other departments rather than having each department send in a plan, you know, all of those things. How do they connect?

[00:41:03] Victoria Lozano: It’s a business strategy, not a marketing strategy, if it’s done well.

[00:41:05] Jason Hemingway: Love it. And one of my old bosses – I’ve never actually been able to do this – but one of my old bosses said, “You should be able to write your strategy on a page.”

[00:41:11] Victoria Lozano: I might say two pages, but I think the first one, like, what I like doing, is one page is your situation analysis. Everything you’ve done, all the work – tell me what’s happening in your business. If I read this, I should be very, very clear. Therefore, here’s what we need to go do. And then the second is plan on the page. What are you based on that? What are your objectives, strategy, tactics, and ultimately, what that links to is not only the clarity in the conversations, but you also get that and get every individual person who is part of your business should be able to look at it and say, “What are my individual objectives and metrics that I need to do? What are my objectives? What are my KPIs to make sure that the work I’m doing is helping deliver against that?” So, this drives so much more around not only clarity, but also alignment and execution to help drive towards a common goal.

[00:42:04] Jason Hemingway: I always aspire towards the one page. I haven’t quite ever delivered it yet, but I will. So, we’re getting towards the end. It’s been a fascinating conversation so far. So, we’ve got a few little questions left for you now, I think. The next one, I guess, you’ve spent 17 years building a growth ecosystem. You’re now starting your next chapter. What is next for you? What do you want to build next?

[00:42:22] Victoria Lozano: Honestly, I want to build, right? I am really inspired by brands, but I want to be able to take that brand and elevate it, you know, turn around, elevate it, whatever the situation might be, and then look at how to translate it to commercial growth. And that can manifest itself whether it’s a core portfolio, whether it’s new audiences and categories, whether it’s new revenue streams. I want to be able to kind of combine what I think I’m really good at, which is brands and building brands, and then using that to drive measurable commercial performance.

[00:42:55] Jason Hemingway: So, well, the burning ambition to build. I love it, yeah. Okay, right. Well, just a couple of quick-fire questions now. And these we ask every guest, really. What does language intelligence mean to you?

[00:43:04] Victoria Lozano: I think to me, it’s about simplicity. I think the ultimate intelligence of sophistication is about having such clarity around your strategy, your intent, your story, that you can express it in such simple words that whether you’re talking to, you know, the most senior person in the company or the most junior person in the company, everyone can understand. And I think that, to me, can be harder work than people give it credit for. But that, to me, is the ultimate measure: how well you understand and how clear you are on your strategy.

[00:43:33] Jason Hemingway: What I heard many years ago was simplifying the complex is actually quite complex, which is a good way of thinking about it. It’s not simple. A brand you most admire now that isn’t Crayola or Cadbury, so I’m going to put those two to the side because we know you admire them.

[00:43:46] Victoria Lozano: I would definitely say one is Lego. I think they actually have an ecosystem that is quite robust in a lot of ways, not dissimilar to Crayola. And I think the work that they do, both in their core business, the new target audiences, like with adult, you know, adult builders, as well as what they do in location-based entertainment and media, I think is really exciting and very well done. I think the other one I would say is Elf Beauty, right? They have a very clear point of view, distinctive, cultural, relevant voice. They move fast, but they’re not chasing trends. They’re always authentic and breakthrough. So, I think what they’re doing is really fascinating.

[00:44:20] Jason Hemingway: Last one, a podcast or book you would recommend to another marketing leader?

[00:44:25] Victoria Lozano: I would say the CMO podcast with Jim Stengel. I think, you know, what’s interesting about that is that the conversations go beyond campaign and marketing success stories. This is really about kind of getting a little bit under the hood around how CMOs think, how decisions and challenges, like, what decisions and challenges they face, how they make those decisions, their role around the broader business, which is, as we talked about, an area I’m specifically passionate about. I’ve personally also, full disclosure, have been fortunate to have been a guest on that podcast. So, I have a personal kind of understanding and appreciation for the depth and the thoughtfulness that Jim brings to those conversations and the kind of insights and perspectives that they offer to the audience.

[00:45:05] Jason Hemingway: I 100% agree. I would recommend everyone to listen to that and your episode, which is also very good. And with that, that’s it from us, Vicky. Thank you so much for joining us. What a fascinating insight into your career so far. I’m looking, as I’m sure everyone else is looking forward to seeing where you go next and where you want to build, but it’s been brilliant. Thank you very much for joining us.

[00:45:26] Victoria Lozano: Thank you. So good to talk to you. Really, really happy to have this conversation.

[00:45:29] Jason Hemingway: Thanks again, Vicky. It’s been a conversation, a really riveting conversation about what happens when an iconic brand becomes a much broader growth ecosystem and then needs to work across different audiences, different categories, different cultures and markets. So, thanks again. And that’s it for another episode of In Other Words, a podcast from Phrase. I’ve been your host, Jason Hemingway, and a big thank you to Victoria Lozano for joining us today. If this conversation got you thinking about how the world’s leading brands build trusted and relevant customer experiences across markets and languages, head to phrase.com. We’d love to help you figure that out. For more conversations on leadership growth and how businesses connect with customers across markets, please do subscribe to In Other Words on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or indeed your preferred podcast platform.